Wandering Tree ®, LLC Podcast
Wandering Tree ®, LLC Podcast is the ultimate audio companion for curious and adventurous minds, offering a journey through thought-provoking discussions and unique perspectives on life, culture, and the journey of an adoptee. This show has been established with the simple goal of reaching other adoptees who may benefit from just hearing other adoptees share on the lived experience. Host, Adoptee Lisa Ann, will share the tangled roots of the life long journey as an adoptee, the search for biological connections, the good and bad of reunions and how saying "I am adopted" has connected to so many others. The candid discussions between Adoptee Lisa Ann and her guests will tackle the term "adoption" and how it is covers so many aspects of our society.
Wandering Tree ®, LLC Podcast
S5:E3 Jenny Becknell's Story of Resilience and Hope Series 3 of 3: Balancing Boundaries and Honest Conversation on Adoption
Join us with our esteemed guest Jenny Becknell as she offers an intimate look into the emotional aftermath of the next two decades of the open adoptions journey, from the touching creation of a heartfelt video for her daughters' 18th birthday to the raw emotions stirred by an unexpected request from Anna's adoptive mother. This episode promises a heartfelt exploration of what it means to navigate these deeply personal experiences, shedding light on the interconnected lives of birth mothers, adoptees, and adoptive families.
As her daughter turns 18, we tackle the shifting dynamics within the adoption triad, exploring the evolving roles and emotions as Jenny grapples with feelings of connection and threat. Our conversation emphasizes the importance of honest communication, revealing the delicate balance between maintaining relationships and acknowledging the fear of being cut off. Jenny's candid reflections on this transformative phase highlight the critical role of empathy and understanding in preventing breakdowns in dialogue, offering listeners valuable insights into the nuances of adoption relationships.
Our discussion further unveils the intricate dynamics of sharing difficult truths and understanding the often-overlooked perspective of birth mothers. Jenny courageously speaks about the challenges of expressing her feelings and the societal perceptions that contribute to her sense of alienation. Through her story, we aim to foster a deeper understanding of the birth mother's journey, emphasizing the need for unconditional love, respect, and open communication. This episode is a heartfelt invitation to understand the complex, emotional world of adoption, leaving listeners with a renewed empathy for all involved.
some of the topics of differences were things that they're, that they definitely knew about me because I had shared that. I shared certain things with them when I met them, just about myself and my feelings and thoughts about things, I was blindsided by not knowing the differences. I guess on the other side of that, Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
Speaker 2:I am your host, lisa Anne. We are an experience-based show focused on sharing the journey of adoption, identity, life search and reunion. It has been a fantastic journey over the last four to five years hosting this podcast and sharing out with each and every one of you. To date, here is what I have personally learned Our numbers are many, we yearn for support and understanding, we desire to better ourselves, we desire connections and, for some, we strive to aid others through groups, books, blogs and podcasts. Today we are completing our series where we are creating a connection, understanding and empathy between birth and Adoptees.
Speaker 2:This is our third and final episode in this three-part series with our guest of honor, jenny Becknell. Good afternoon, welcome again to the show, hi, lisa. Well, we've had quite the journey, you and I, over the last two previous episodes, where we've connected dots between pregnancy, birth and relinquishment, and today we're going to go into post 18 years. Before we do that, I think it would be a good idea for us to share with the listeners a couple of things that have happened post each of these episodes where we've been off mic or a couple days later and we've had some type of a reaction to our conversation After our first episode. You called me. You were just really compelled to ask me some questions. You had this weird feeling and we talked through it. We won't share what it is, but it was just really a unique opportunity for us, post the episode number one, to connect even further.
Speaker 2:And after we hung up I was pretty much like a mess. I was in massive tears for you and your daughter, anna, and I knew why later and I want to share with you a little bit because I could see through that episode how this episode was going to kind of unfold massive indicators. But the item that really tore me apart for several days was when you shared with our listeners that during the time period where you were engaged with Anna and her adoptive mother, one of the things that was asked of you was that you drop your daughter off at her adoptive family's house after a visit, so that it would be like you were leaving again. And I thought to myself as you were talking about it, as we ended the episode and many days later, what a terrible thing to have to do for you and for your daughter.
Speaker 2:I was thinking the whole time. I'm an adoptee and I know what it's like to hear words such as relinquished, given up, chosen. All the garbage let's just be honest garbage and I was just like why add to it so selfish? Just so you know, I thought that was a selfish ask of the adoptee mother. She doesn't have to agree with me, she doesn't even have to know me, but just so we're getting the cards on the table as we dive into the next part of today. I've been kind of angry on behalf of your daughter, anna, almost the entire time.
Speaker 1:I am too, and I will say I do. I'm not taking away at all from what you're saying, but I do a little bit feel like it's important for me just to state that I do know that she did. What I was told by her was that she sought counsel, and that's what they suggested to her that she do. So I just want to say that I mean she could obviously disagree with them or whatever, but and it never hit me that way Because, again, I always wanted to do what was best for Anna. So if that's what people you know the experts were saying that I believed them, you know I trusted them with that. So I do appreciate you sharing that with me and I hope and look forward to one day hearing Anna's side of things, but for now she's still just very obligated and silent, so I don't hear any of those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah and you may never. You may never hear those. So it's a crazy world. Well, let's go ahead and dive into today's conversation, the continuation of your story, where we're going to move past those first 18 years, and some of the things that have you know kind of transpired since, because it's been an interesting backside journey as well.
Speaker 1:Yes, it has. So I guess we're kind of starting off with when Anna turned 18. I was just actually talking with my husband this morning about this again, and so when Anna turned 18, I had the most, the craziest reaction to her. I don't know if we talked about this at all last time, but to her turning 18, I was an absolute, complete, just devastated mess for months, for months before she turned 18, leading up to her 18th birthday, and I had made the decision to make a video for her for her 18th birthday, and the video was going to be her entire life with me, our life together. And so it started off literally pictures of her birth, father, pictures of myself, what we looked like when she, you know, came into the world. So I had pictures of the two of us and then I had her birth, you know, came into the world. So I had pictures of the two of us and then I had her birth. You know, pictures of her birth and who was there, and then some little dialogue.
Speaker 1:I had never made a video or a movie before, but it was kind of fun to do and one of my sons actually helped me do it. I literally put this entire thing together from her birth all the way up to her 18th birthday. Letters, all of the plays that she was in, the little whatever those little booklets are called I know there's a name for them that have everyone's that's in the play and literally just like everything letters that she wrote to me, letters that her mom had given to me over the years, little cards and things like that that we had shared back and forth, and lots and lots of pictures. And and then I and I picked out songs and I mean some. Really it's, it's it's gut wrenching. This it's 35 minutes long. Did you watch it? I started to watch it.
Speaker 2:Well, I watched half of it, as you and I talked about just a couple minutes ago off mic. I traveled the last few weeks and so I did watch a little bit of it while I could, and yeah, and then I knew that I would get to the end of it at some point. But, to be honest, for me those sometimes are hard to watch.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, oh, they're definitely hard to watch. It's I mean in this, in the one that I sent to you. Actually I found it and I videoed it from my phone and so you can hear me in the background sobbing. I don't know if you noticed that it's really, but anyway, I didn't even know that, I didn't think you could hear any of that. But when I did go back and listen to the one that I sent and realize that you can hear that at points, but it is so hard to watch, it's so hard to watch but it is so good and I love that I did it. I love it. It's probably one of my favorite things that I've done.
Speaker 1:And I don't, to this day, think that Anna has ever watched it. And it's been another 18 years. She will be 32 years old this Thursday, so we are literally 18 years again past her 18th birthday. I don't know that it's ever been. I don't know. She's never made a comment about it. I tried to send her the same thing I sent to you and got nothing back from her about it. So, moving forward from there, that was her 18th birthday. She graduated from high school. Her birth father and I were at her graduation with our, you know, my husband and my children went also and we have, you know, our little family pictures together, like we always did over the years and still do to this day. She was 18.
Speaker 1:So then, in 2014, so I had had a conversation with her mother, letting her know this is really, I'm scared, like I'm scared. What if she? Like all of these 18 years, you've kind of facilitated our relationship, so you've always been the one to kind of give me permission to see her, and how often and how long we're together and where we go together and what activities we do together. Like, you've always been in charge of that and now you're not going to be in charge. And what if she doesn't choose me? What if she chooses to not have me around? What if she? You know, what if? Like, that was very scary and I shared that with her mom, never thinking, ever thinking, that maybe her mom was thinking the same thing on the other end. Looking back now, I think that probably was happening for her as well, but she didn't share that with me.
Speaker 1:And so, moving forward a couple of years, so there was an event that took place and her mom and I are on very different sides of the table, or whatever the saying is I'm never good with those things Very different sides of our opinions on how we feel about certain topics and things. And so something had happened, and at this point Hannah was 21 years old and I felt very comfortable talking to her about my feelings about things at this point, and I'm sharing, doing my parenting, part of my life with her, and so I felt very comfortable, even though our opinions may have been different. I felt comfortable talking to Anna about that. She was 21. She wasn't a little kid anymore, and so I shared that with her, and I guess she had told her parents how I felt, and so I got a message.
Speaker 1:This was like one of the first real humdingers I guess for me is a nice way to say it, but I had gotten a message from her mom basically saying you don't need to share your judgments about Anna's parents with her. You can feel however you want to feel about it, but don't share those feelings with her without thoughtful reflection about how you're going to be of service to Anna. This isn't about you, this isn't about your choice about things, so you don't need to be running your home movie for Anna. Well, never until literally yesterday did I connect that that home movie had to do with that 18th birthday video. I always wondered what she meant about a home movie, do you think? Maybe it's not?
Speaker 2:No, I'm right with you, I, I wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and never until yesterday, and this was in 2014. So that was 10 years ago and I'm just now connecting so that was 10 years ago and I'm just now connecting that that was about the home. So that's when I started realizing, oh, all of these things, that all this disconnect I've been feeling since she turned 18, it's real. Like that is real, and I was shocked by that. Like she had never said not that she'd never said anything that hurt me before, but not to that oomph that really put a big wedge between us. At that point, my having different thoughts and opinions about topics was not okay with her. Like it was not okay. There were times that we had conversations where she would tell me can you please call her back and tell her that's not how you felt. Tell her you changed your mind and this is what you think, and I'm like, no, not going to do that, that's not going to happen.
Speaker 1:A few years after that, she was really rebelling in life in general, just really making bad decisions, bad decisions, bad decisions, and so there were a lot of times that her mom and I were on the same page about how we felt about those things, and we would we would carefully discuss them. I was always very careful to not say anything negative about Anna, though I would. I would just say, yeah, I'm disappointed that that was what she chose, but you know, she's got to learn, she's got to. Sometimes you, you got to fail in order to figure it out. So we just got to let her fail sometimes. Well, she was never okay with that. She was always. You know, before the pen would hit the floor, you know her mom would do 15 flips and catch that pen, and so that was not something that she was okay with.
Speaker 1:But a few years later, I had even gotten a message for me to call and let Anna know, or she was upset with me because I had implied that she had put Anna down, that she had said something negative to her and that that would be a real disservice to Anna for me to be saying something negative about her mom and that I shouldn't imply that for me to be saying something negative about her mom and that I shouldn't imply that. And it's sad because I even, like, responded like oh no, I wasn't saying that I'm her parent and I said I never said that I was a perfect parent. I was just telling you my feelings. I'm not her parent either, which I definitely did my fair share, by the way. I'm her birth mother. We are just looking at things differently. That's just a fact. We've had different life experiences, so we are reacting from those experiences and parenting from those. That is just how it is. I'm sorry if that upsets you.
Speaker 1:Well, you implied that Anna had been put down and had been made to feel less than, and that you would indeed never do that. I presume that you were talking about your never having done that with your children. That's unfortunate for Anna, because she does just keep finding new ways to not be responsible. So Anna had had a really bad day at work and she didn't want to deal with the reactions from her parents, or she didn't wear the right thing to work or something. And they sent her home and she came to my. She had gone to my house and she was asking me did you know that she was at my, at your house? And I said, no, I didn't know she was at my house, but she's always welcome to come to my house and I oh well, aren't you the perfect? I would. You know I'm not going to judge her, whatever.
Speaker 2:Let's pause for just one minute. We're going to go back just a little bit. You've unpacked a lot and I think we can pull a couple of nuggets out. There was a distinct shift in your story in the first few minutes here of this episode, where there was kumbaya, my words, the first 18 years, and then a cliff almost. And when I'm listening to you now, you're reading some of the dialogue from 18 to. It looks like about 20, 21, 22, 23. That had to have been an extremely interesting time for Anna as well.
Speaker 2:That mark of 18 years probably means something different for adoptees and each adoptee than it might have meant for you or even for the adopted parents. I'm going to apply my own experience At 18, that is when I knew there were different options. Now I might not have been mature enough to exercise those options, but I knew they existed. Also, I'm reflecting on myself at 18. I certainly wasn't ready to try to navigate the emotional mind field of two other adults, which is kind of what's coming across right now. What I'm finding even more interesting and it colors my perspective on the adopted parent is when the narrative changed and she was no longer able to control every aspect. And I'm also wondering in reflection, jenny, if your behavior changed, Because prior to that birthday you were kind of toe on the line. I hardly doubt your opinions just formed on day number two, post-18 birthday, but you just weren't expressing them. So your behavior changes, anna's behavior changes. Adopt-e a parent behavior changes and everybody's trying to navigate this new, new.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, definitely, and I know that some of the topics of differences were things that they definitely knew about me because I had shared that. I'd shared certain things with them when I met them, just about myself and my feelings and thoughts about things. I was blindsided by not knowing the differences. I guess on the other side of that, that was a real shock to me and so I definitely was reacting from that. And let's not forget also that at this point I had four other children. I was a true mom, I was a parent and had been parenting. And was I parenting Anne on a day-to-day basis? No, I definitely wasn't. But she knew me. Like we didn't have a lot I mean, there's a lot of the things that you know. She knew my personality, she knew what I liked, she knew what made me laugh, she knew how similar we were. It wasn't like I had come into her life in a reunion sense, where she just suddenly met her birth mother and I was just pretending to be her parent, like I had been parenting Anna on and off in my own sort of way over the years. And so she I definitely. You know she and I argued, she and I had disagreements and you know I told Anna, no, it wasn't like it was. Everything was always yes. You know, I shared those things with her. So it just had never come out that way.
Speaker 1:And prior to this we had a very respectful relationship and she, I thought, enjoyed sharing the things that were similar to her and I, like she would share with me. Your daughter did this, your daughter did that. Look what your daughter did today. She would say things like you know, our teenage daughter is acting like our baby. You know we saw Jenny today when Anna was doing this, like she would share those things with me in an endearing, kind way.
Speaker 1:So it was never didn't come to me that I was ever a threat to any part of her parenting up until this point.
Speaker 1:And now it was starting to come out that my opinions, my thoughts, who I was, was now a threat to who she is, and it was the first I was really seeing that and I think I was really kind of rebelling against it, I guess in my own way. And I also want to say that I know I appreciate you sharing how you feel about those things and I by no means am trying to say like I'm the perfect person and I've handled all of these things exactly as I should have, because I'm sure that in another 18 years I'll look back at the things I did today and be like you're such a dumb, you know idiot doing that. So I do. I do recognize that I for sure made my own fair share of mistakes, and I think the sad part about it is that it's the conversation is completely cut off, like there is just no digging through this respectfully together anymore, which is very sad yeah, my key takeaway is the turning point may have been on all sides pretty equally.
Speaker 2:I listen to all of the you know dialogue and what I'm hearing from you as well. You did toe a a line. Do you think you did that because you were fearful of being cut off, even though you did share your perspectives and your opinions? I'm wondering if they were a little bit softened. 18 comes, you're no longer as soft as you were. Do you think that had any play here?
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know, I don't. I think that maybe in my mind I thought that when she turned 18, I mean, like the whole like narrative of I'm the birth mother would go away, kind of thing. And I still struggle with that even now, like now that she's 32 years old, or almost 32 years old I'm I. There are definitely things that I think is there that are unfair of me. I do think they're unfair of me that they bother me, but they do bother me. So I don't want to pretend that they don't bother me, because that would be dishonest. And I think the thing that I really want to more than anything, display or try to figure out with this whole adoption everything is the truth in all of it, and so I think it would be dishonest of me to say, like I cannot stand, that she calls me Jenny, but it never bothered me for 18 years. It never bothered me that she called me Jenny.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's very interesting because I would offer up this to you as well. When I met my birth mother, it was emotional, it was awkward. As more time went on it became a little bit more awkward, and the two things that made me consistently uncomfortable as the adoptee. She would introduce me as her daughter, as if she had raised me, and she would tell me she loved me. Keep in mind, I did not meet her until I was trying to count now late 40s, and I didn't have that emotional love connection to her, and it upset her. It would upset her if I didn't respond with I love you too. Now, that doesn't mean I didn't have a lot of empathy or that I didn't care about her or that I didn't want the best for her. I just didn't know her in that context. And so I'm wondering here too. Another takeaway is you have all of this going on and you don't like the term birth mother, but age didn't change that fact, right?
Speaker 1:right? Yeah, definitely I mean, and, like I said, I know, I know that it's not and I don't. I have shared it with Anna before, but I'm not like stuck on it, I'm not like trying to make her call me mom or anything. I've just I have shared with her how I feel about it and I just I've just let it go. You know, I I know that I just need to let that go because it's not her problem, it's not her issue. She didn't ask for any of this. She didn't ask for any of it, so it isn't her burden to carry. You know, it's just something I have to deal. It's just another one of the many things that I have to deal with because of the decision that I made for her life. And I do get that. But it would be dishonest of me to not share that. It does bother me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that it's important for listeners to hear that those are things that bother you as well. The context is different. The context is drastically different. You're resonating. I am a birth parent. You're resonating. I helped for 18 years. I was deeply involved. It was all good. Then we have this like flip switching birth date Somewhere in here. Everybody had a different context for that. Now here we are another, you know, almost 18 years later, and the perspective is just grounding and very interesting. I know it's hard, it's hard on all angles, and so we're looking at this from that, you know, from that lens that says this is how the birth mother feels. We're also, you know, you and I, looking at it from the lens of me saying, yeah, and this is how the adoptee might feel, regardless of age. It's very intriguing.
Speaker 1:I love this part of our conversation for that reason, because here we disagree it's okay. It's okay that we disagree. I think that's always like my big go-to thing Like I'm not looking to agree with everyone on how they feel, but we do need to allow the other person to have their own feelings. And whatever it is that's happening as long as the conversation is continuing, is that's happening, like we, if as long as the conversation is continuing, it's good. It's when you decide, okay, we're going to cut this off.
Speaker 1:I disagree with what you say adoptive mother or birth mother or adoptee Like that's when we're, when we're pointing fingers at each other instead of looking within. I feel like that's where it really. You know, the conversation stops and then nothing changes. And I think that a big thing for me is that we really need to listen to each other, like we really really do, like all of us need to. And most importantly number one, most important is we need to listen to the adopted person's perspective, because they have never had any decision whatsoever and they deserve to know the truth. And if I could say anything to birth mothers like all birth mothers, every birth mother listening and I hope that lots of birth mothers listen, is that we have to. We have to be able to listen, we have to be able to accept what is being said regardless, and to know that, regardless of where we got where we are today, that our children deserve the absolute truth.
Speaker 1:And so when I hear any adopted person and say, yeah, I met my birth mother and she cut me off and she didn't ever tell any of her other people, or okay, like everyone has to go through their things, but we have to be honest. Whether it was that you ended up pregnant because of a rape, whatever the reason might be, they deserve to know the truth of how they came to be and who they are. Like the truth and they can deal with it. We're adults. We can deal with hard things. We all have dealt with hard things. We will continue for the rest of our lives to deal with hard things, but there is nothing harder than trying to figure out things that are not being told to us, and we always make it way worse than it usually is anyway. And so a place that we know that is important to hear and for people to know is that we have to be honest. Even if it's hard, we have to be honest.
Speaker 2:I agree there's a reciprocal of that as well, which is each person in the conversation, regardless of their role, because it could be an adjunct support person, it could be social work, it could be, you know, the person trying to navigate new information about themselves. It could be the person sharing really hard information. The point I believe that you're really trying to get to is we just all have to listen to one another. I've heard you say so far in our conversation during this time period and you're going to continue on a little bit more with some of the challenges you would say you weren't always behaving in the best interest of the big circle either, because we're humans and it's emotional and it's a lot all the time.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I mean I watch myself sometimes become literally like a 12-year-old kid throwing a temper tantrum. I mean it's so ridiculous. And I just look at myself and I've got to like pull myself out of it. I will like text the most immature thing and then I'm like, do not hit, send, you've got to delete that whole thing, you know. But I mean, luckily my husband God bless him is my sounding board and so I can go to him with anything and I don't know how he still survives with having me as his wife sometimes, but by golly he does it. He'll take it all for me. I mean, he's such a trooper. I put him through such an emotional roller coaster, but he gets all of those feelings and I am so blessed to have him.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I mean it is hard and like you were talking earlier about all of the things that have happened in between, all of these calls that you and I have had with each other and continuously having panic attacks in the middle of the night, it's happening, I'm waking up in the middle of the night. I've had to teach myself how to breathe. I've been doing this in the middle of the night to calm myself because I will wake up with my blood boiling and my body shaking and I've been having a lot of yeah. I mean it's been interesting too. I think it's been good, I think this has been good for me to go through through, but it's also really, really hard, because sometimes the truth in all of this stuff is it's hard to talk about.
Speaker 1:Do my feelings matter to anyone? Does anyone care, really care about the birth mother and what they experience? I feel like I have really dug deep into finding out how it feels to be the adoptee, and I feel like I have dug really deep into learning about what it's like to be an adopted parent and what they go through and the loss of not being able to carry your own child. I've really done a lot of work with that. I really have, and so I just think, does, does? Does anybody else care? Like, does her mom care about what I might be going through? Does Anna care what I might be going through? Or is that wrong of me to even wonder my reaction to your question is divided.
Speaker 2:My first reaction is are you asking do the people that are closest to you, and in this with you, more specifically Anna and the adoptive parents, care? They're the only ones that are going to be able to answer that there's, you know, and I don't know what signal you would be looking for from them to know that they care. Think about that for a little bit. What would be that signal? You guys are still engaged in a relationship, so something tells me it's not as fatalistic, detrimental as it may feel Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt, right? Clearly it still hurts, or we wouldn't be talking about it. The second part where I'm divided is around the conversation more globally within the community. I would offer this up. No, not everyone's going to care, just like not everyone cares what an adoptive parent has to say. Not everyone cares about what an adoptee has to say. Those are just facts. It's common.
Speaker 2:But I do believe with all my heart, there is enough in the community broad brush term where there is care, right, there's enough desire to have these conversations. Or you and I wouldn't be talking. There's enough desire to share and educate, or there wouldn't have been events this year, right? So, reflecting on what you've just said, take out the hurt component Deep down. You know people do care what birth mothers, and fathers for that matter, have to say. Is there a path out of the hurt? I hope so. I don't know.
Speaker 1:That's a tough one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a tough question. I didn't think we were going this route today, but I'm really glad that we did, because it's important. One of the things that I think about is my reaction and how I get hurt for the really simple stuff. It rubs me absolutely the wrong way when someone says, oh, how lucky you are, you were adopted, or I wish I had been adopted. I don't see that side of the coin. The reason I don't see that side of the coin is because I also don't understand what would drive someone to say that. I'm sure it's a lot of challenges in life where the perception is to have been given an opportunity to do something different, not understanding it wasn't an opportunity given, it was imposed upon. Well, let's get us a little bit back on track. So you've been working through this post-18th birthday for several years. Now You're about to celebrate another birthday with Anna. Are you navigating in a place of friction between all three?
Speaker 1:of you. Well, ever since my granddaughter has been born, her mom doesn't talk to me at all anymore. She's blocked me completely from any contact whatsoever. When my granddaughter was born, during this pandemic, there was a lot again that happened the differences between who's really in charge of life, you know, for this little person, and so I was very respectful of my daughter's, whatever her kind of rules were for the house. So you know, even during that, I would never have put Anna in that position to choose one over the other. I would have made that decision for her and not made it difficult whatsoever. So, anyway, so, but once my granddaughter was born, I was going to be staying with Anna for a week or so after the baby was born and her mom, I guess, wanted, expected me to wear a mask the entire time, and I was going to be in Anna's house, and so I asked Anna how she felt about it and she was like you don't need to wear a mask.
Speaker 1:Anyway, it turned into a big fight where I was screamed at, screamed at, and while I was holding the baby, her mom was yelling at me about not wearing a mask and what a terrible person I was and that she would never treat my grandchild that way. It was this big power struggle. I was told to leave the house. I wasn't allowed to be there because technically they own the house that my daughter lives in, and so it just it became. It was just disgusting. I did leave and I'm, you know, a grown adult, like 48 year old woman it was. It felt so strange to me to be treated like that. I really just cared about like making sure that Anna was comfortable and making sure Anna was happy, and you know, and it has been that kind of struggle since then.
Speaker 2:What an interesting perspective at this point, but more importantly, as you were saying that, what was going through my mind is there not enough room in the world for everyone? What is ultimately the power struggle here? Wouldn't you want kids of any age adults, humans, I mean in that tiered order to just feel absolutely loved, with no conditions, no labels, no drama?
Speaker 1:I don't get that and I think that is for me the difficult place, because I do not ever want to put Anna in a place where she has to feel like she has to choose. I never want that for her and you know, ultimately it's just, it's hard because I do love her mom and I know it doesn't probably sound like that right now hearing what I'm having to say, but I really do love her. I am super thankful for everything that she gave me the opportunity to do. I know that most open adoptions close very quickly and she did not do that and I have very much recognized her.
Speaker 2:I have thanked her for that that I realized that she could have at any point done that and she never did so knowing that this is an extremely complex topic and we have spent three conversations around it, what is it that you think would be the one, two, three takeaways from all three of these episodes that you would like the listeners to leave with?
Speaker 1:No matter where you are and your thoughts about adoption.
Speaker 1:I think that it's really really important that we all listen to each other really, really important that we all listen to each other.
Speaker 1:I think that it's extremely important to, most importantly, to listen to adoptees and to their experiences and to their stories, to allow them to speak their truth and not try to stop them from feeling how they're feeling. I think it is extremely important to have your voice and to speak your thoughts, and if the people around you aren't willing to listen to that, keep looking, because there are people that will.
Speaker 1:I think the truth sets us free. The truth is so important in that every single person that's walking on the face of this earth deserves to know what their truth is and deserves to know everything about themselves, and they shouldn't have to pay tons and tons of money to find it. And I would say thing that I would love for listeners to hear is that I will, for the rest of my life as a birth mother. I will forever grieve not being able to parent my child, and if I had one thing that I would change in my life if I could go back, I would, 1 million percent, have never, ever, ever signed a paper to give a gift to another person, and I lived my entire life, every single day, trying to be better, was shaped by that decision.
Speaker 2:That's very special. I think that I will close us with this. That's entire life, so that decision should never be taken lightly. We know that, we've been living it, and there is not one thing that we can say that will lessen how impactful that statement is to ourselves and how we feel about it, how I feel about it as I say it, how you feel about it as you hear it, and how others feel about it when they listen. It is paramount to understand.
Speaker 2:One decision shapes many lives, no different than other decisions in your life, but this is just one of those that it's just so hard to put tangible things around it. I am so thankful you've been willing to come on the show and to be raw and real about the experience from your lens, and also to be willing to hear what I've had to say encounter to some of your feelings, and so those are precious moments that I just really am thankful to have had with you, I feel the exact same way I adore you, and I know that it may I'm not expecting you to say it back to me, but I do love you.
Speaker 1:I really do.
Speaker 2:Well, knowing how I feel about that statement, that is a very, very kind thing to say, and I have very strong emotions towards you as well, and so I think we're going to call it a day, and I'm looking forward to when we move on in a few months and maybe come back around and say what have we learned from this experience or hear from others. So hit us up and let us know what you've learned from this dialogue and this three episode series. It has been absolutely enlightening, so thank you again. Thank you, lisa. Thank you for listening to today's episode of Wandering Tree Podcast. Please rate, review and share this out so we can experience the lived adoptee journey together. Want to be a guest on our show? Check us out at wanderingtreeadopteecom. Thank you.